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This is
a partial transcript from The O'Reilly
Factor, March 6, 2002.
Click here to order the
complete transcript.
BILL O'REILLY, HOST: In the
Personal Story" segment tonight, millions of
Americans are still resentful that Jane Fonda was not punished
for her pro-North Vietnam activities 30 years ago. The
situation has been inflamed by the indictment of John Walker
on a variety of charges, stemming from his support of the
Taliban.
In 1972, as the Vietnam War was raging, Ms.
Fonda traveled to Hanoi as a guest of the North
Vietnamese government. She denounced the U.S. military
as war criminals and held a staged press conference with
American POWs, asserting that they were being treated
well.
After the war, of course, we learned
otherwise. The question, did Jane Fonda commit treason?
Joining us now from Washington is Henry Holzer, co-author of
the new book Aid and Comfort: Jane Fonda in North
Vietnam. And from Los Angeles, former anti-war
activist and ex-husband of Ms. Fonda, Tom Hayden.
So you do believe that treason, Mr. Holzer, was involved here
with Jane Fonda?
HENRY HOLZER, AID AND COMFORT,
AUTHOR: Well, there's no question, as our book proves,
that there was sufficient evidence to both indict her and
convict her. And the reason for that, Bill, is that the
Constitution says treason is intentionally aiding and
comforting the enemy. And if I may, I just want to read
two very brief quotes. One is by a chief North
Vietnamese propagandist and perhaps an old pal of Mr.
Hayden's.
"Visits to Hanoi by people like Jane Fonda
gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of
battlefield reverses." The second quote is "the
international publicity surrounding her trip may have helped
prevent U.S. plans for bombing the dikes of North
Vietnam." That statement was made by your other guest,
Mr. Hayden.
O'REILLY: Mr. Hayden, how do you
reply to that?
TOM HAYDEN, FMR. CALIFORNIA STATE
SENATOR: Well, I think it's true that the publicity
around her trip did implement her purpose, which was to bring
attention to White House plans at the time to flood the north
or to contaminate the rice supply, which would've starved or
injured millions of people, killing thousands of them.
As far as the legal charges go, the Nixon
administration had its chance, you know. On August 23,
1972, President Nixon's Attorney General, Richard Klinedienst,
said there was not the evidence necessary.
O'REILLY: To indict Ms. Fonda on
treason charges?
HAYDEN: Right. And the
House Un-American Activities Committee, which was a very
far right anti-Communist product of the McCarthy era, actually
subpoenaed Jane. And she responded that she'd be willing
to come and testify. And then they canceled the
hearings.
O'REILLY: Why did they do that, Mr.
Holzer? Why didn't the Nixon administration go after her
faster?
HOLZER: Mr. Hayden has his facts
wrong. In the first place, it was the House Internal
Security Committee. In the second palace, Tom, as you
know very well, Lenny Wineglass resisted the subpoena and she
didn't appear. And it's all in the book.
O'REILLY: Yes, but I mean, the Nixon
administration could have brought treason charges against
her. That's the bottom line on why didn't they...
HOLZER: I found out why they
didn't. It's in the book. And the reason they
didn't is because of the memory of Mr. Hayden's caper in
Chicago at the so-called Chicago 7 trial. And I have a
quote in the book, which says that the Justice Department, and
this is shameful, the Justice Department was afraid of
her.
Nixon was trying to shut down the
war. Nixon was running for re-election. And they
were afraid. And this is a direct quote from somebody
involved in that process: "We were afraid she, read that, she
and her lawyers and guys like Hayden, would make a monkey of
us."
O'REILLY: Well, it certainly would
have made spectacle. I don't know about a monkey.
Now Mr. Hayden --
HOLZER: Their word was monkey.
O'REILLY: If you go by the letter of
the law, and I have the treason definition here in the
criminal code right in front of me, it does seem that Jane
Fonda did commit treason against this country, even if she
disagreed, as you did, against the Vietnam War policy, because
she did give aid and comfort to the enemy. So if she did
commit treason, should she pay some kind of price?
HAYDEN: Are you asking me?
O'REILLY: Yes.
HAYDEN: Well, I think she pays a
certain price by being the favorite scapegoat of one
generation of right wingers after another, who seem to feel
that the war was lost because of her. And it's time, I
think, to put that aside and to put the Rambo movies aside and
put the scapegoating of Jane Fonda aside.
I repeat, on August 23, 1972, the Attorney
General of the United States said there wasn't the evidence to
go forward. In a speech to prosecutors's, attorneys
--
O'REILLY: All right, but you and I
both know -- hey look, politics is politics, but you and I
both know, Mr. Hayden, that she did give aid and comfort to
the enemy at that time. So if you're going to prosecute
John Walker, who did the same thing to the Taliban, same
thing, all right, then why would you...
HAYDEN: No, it's not the same
thing.
O'REILLY: Select the
prosecution? You know what I mean?
HAYDEN: It's not the same
thing. First of all, on the aid and comfort issue, if
they had gone to court, they would have had to also evaluate
whether she was within protected First Amendment rights in
terms of speaking out, standing up, having her photo
taken. John Walker...
HOLZER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
O'REILLY: No, I'll give you time to
reply. Go ahead, Mr. Hayden finish.
(CROSS TALK)
O'REILLY: Wait, let Mr. Hayden
finish his thought and I'll give you the last...
HAYDEN: I don't want to judge the
John Walker case prematurely, but Jane Fonda did not move to
Vietnam. She did not join a foreign army. Her
behavior was within the First Amendment. That's why they
thought they would not be able to win the case.
O'REILLY: Let Mr. Holzer reply to
that. Go ahead, you reply.
HOLZER: Axis sally and Tokyo Rose
made the same phony First Amendment argument. Axis Sally
and Tokyo Rose were indicted, tried and convicted of
treason. And their convictions were upheld on appeal
against First Amendment challenges. Hayden doesn't know
what he's talking about.
She did more than speak. Mansfield
spoke on the floor of the Senate. And other senators
spoke on the floor of the Senate. And Hayden spoke in
the U.S., as did others. She went to Hanoi. She
posed on the triple A gun, the cover of which is this
book. She interrogated and harangued seven
American POW's. She lied about their treatment.
When she came back, when they claimed they
were tortured, she said they were liars and hypocrites.
Or Hayden said it. There's some dispute between the two
of them. So don't, Tom, give me the idea, and tell the
people who are watching this that all she did was speak.
She falsely shouted "fire" in a crowded movie theater.
O'REILLY: All right, I'm going to
give Tom Hayden the last word, gentlemen. Very
interesting discussion. Go ahead, Mr. Hayden.
HAYDEN: Well, there's a lot that
needs to be opened up and investigated. I for one would
like to see the allegations about the POWs aired in an
independent examination, but that's not the issue here.
The issue here is that this gentleman would
like to be the latest in a group of people, who are
scapegoating Jane Fonda for her role in the Vietnam War.
She went to North Vietnam to bring attention to the bombing
and the attacks on the levy system and on -- the word was
going around that the rice was going to be contaminated.
She did it for moral reasons. And a lot of other people
sat on the sidelines.
O'REILLY: All right. And we'll
let the audience decide, gentlemen, as always. And we
thank you very much for your points of view.
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